Wikipedia Founder and Porn Trafficker Jimmy Wales

* The Bain of Wikipedia on BEL: Bob Enyart interviews an old friend of the show, Dr. Judith Reisman, about pornography trafficker and Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales. The pornography purveyor ironically claims that Dr. Reisman and WorldNetDaily have libeled him. Yet even Wikipedia's article about him acknowledges that he was a pornography trafficker and even today Wikipedia's policies support those who upload pornography to its website. Also discussed are the homosexual child molester Alfred Kinsey, the damage done by pornography, Bob's DVD Morality: Why God Forbids Sexual Immorality, and Dr. Reisman's classic book, Soft Porn Plays Hard Ball. Also, the two note the intense irony in Jimmy Wales' complaint that Reisman and WND are harming his reputation, when his Wikipedia site has lies about many Christian, pro-life, and anti-evolution leaders and groups, as consistently as though it were its overt editorial policy.

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* WP Spat: Regarding biblical rsr.org/archaeology, in June 2020 Bob Enyart got into a spat, reproduced here for your convenience, with a Wikipedia administrator and other guardians of the truth over Bob's suggestion that an External Link be created to biblearchaeology.org. For more sensitive Christians, please realize that here Bob refers to the Associates for Biblical Research as an "unreliable source" only from Wikipedia's perspective and for a tactical, though failed, purpose.

Is it best that WP readers don't learn here of ABR, largest biblical literalist group?[edit]

Based on Wikipedia's editorial perspective and standards, is it best that this article not inform WP readers about Associates for Biblical Research, https://biblearchaeology.org, the most well known biblical-literalist archaeology organization? Their founder:
- PhD in archaeology from Andrews U.
Various staff have:
- masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard
- masters from Baltimore Hebrew U., thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine
- M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto
- etc. etc.
So is it better our readers don't learn here about this popular group, or should we put an External Link, something like:

Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 17:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

How would an external link meet WP:EL? ¬¬¬¬ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 17:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Great question. Thanks for asking Doug. From WP:EL "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 17:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I just went ahead and added this external link. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 03:44, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a low tolerance for WP:FRINGE organizations and WP:PROFRINGE.

Quotes like this:

The Bible, however, plainly teaches that man was created fully formed and with a sophisticated intellect right at the beginning of creation (Mk 10:6, Gn 1:27). When God decided to judge the world because of its great wickedness (Gn 6:7, 2 Pt 2:4–5), Noah and seven others from his family were spared in the Ark. All human beings alive today are descendants of Noah’s family. If this fact of history is rejected, once again false conclusions will be drawn.

— Henry B. Smith, Jr., Bible and Spade, Fall 2006, Vol. 19, No. 4, p. 97

... ain't gonna pass through peer-review in any academic journal worth its salt.

This is even better:

Most of the dinosaurs were simply unable to survive the adverse environmental conditions that existed after they left the Ark.

— loc. cit.

From the sublime to the ridiculous is only a step. For the true believer, the above quotes are sublime truths; for the rest of us they are ridiculous rants. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:27, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Tgeorgescu. Your quotes prove that according to WP policy, biblearchaeology.org is an unreliable source. But it's been posted to this article as an External Link according to WP policy as an unreliable source. You may have read just above the excerpt from WP:EL about links to unreliable sources, External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." As presented above prior to adding the External Link, biblearchaeology.org is run by a PhD in archaeology from Andrews U with staffers who have a masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard, a masters from Baltimore Hebrew U. with a thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine, M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto, etc. So I'm asking you (or another WP editor, but preferably you Tgeeorgescu) to Undo your own edit restoring the link. Thanks for your consideration! Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

You have twice quoted "information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" but you haven't identified such information. I don't think that people who believe dinosaurs were on the Ark are knowledgeable sources; actually I think they are ignorant enemies of science. Would we add the Flat Earth Society as an EL to geodesy if we found some members with university degrees? Zerotalk 06:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey Zero. You ask a valid question. The argument isn't that this ABR group's leaders have generic "university degrees" but that a factor in this link decision is that they have the topic-relevant degrees including from leading institutions. To answer your question, having interviewed one of NASA's astronauts who walked on the moon, and having worked for years helping to bring people out of the flat-earth movement, I'm not aware of relevantly degreed flat-earthers (but perhaps there are). But regardless, I answer your question, "No, we wouldn't add an Ext Link to the Flat Earth Society from the geodesy article." But it would be well within WP policy to add one to the Flat Earth article. Of course Biblical Archaeology is a different kind of topic than flat earth. So as with the title of this section, you are asserting that is it best that WP readers don't learn here of the largest biblical literalist group. Two arguments for restoring or keeping out such a link are:

1) It's relevant to this topic so let readers of this article know about this group

2) Even though WP policy allows for such a link, don't let this article even in this minimalist way inform readers that there is a large and well-established group run by qualified researchers because WP readers are better served by this article not informing them about this.

I'll ask again if Tgeeorgescu, or you Zero, or another Wikipedian might restore the link. That'd be much better than me doing so. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 13:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Let me tell you something: "biblical archaeologist" is a label meant to express mockery for those who indulge in pseudoarchaeology and pseudohistoryTgeorgescu (talk) 14:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey Tgeorgescuc. Thanks for telling me that. I don't know who's using that term but if by it you're reiterating that ABR is an unreliable source, that doesn't at all undermine my argument for this link based on WP:EL as excerpted above. And I still would like to know if you or Zero or another editor will consider restoring that link. Thanks! Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 14:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with Tgeorgescu on the insult bit. It can be used that way, but it can also just refer to digging up stuff from places and times relevant to the Bible. Getting back to ABR, it isn't out of the question that they are mentioned in the article but they are not suitable for an external link (which would look more like an advertisement than a genuine pointer to further information). What it needs is a secondary source that mentions ABR, probably in the context of discussing such fundamentalist groups, then we need a consensus that the mention is notable enough for inclusion. If those hurdles are crossed, which is far from certain, it could be mentioned in the body of the article. Zerotalk 14:52, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for those thoughts Zero. Aside from your worthwhile suggestion, what you've added to the External Link discussion is that it would look more like an advertisement. From some perspectives, undoubtedly, but is that the decisive policy standard? I believe the applicable policy standard from WP:EL is that External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." By WP's standard, I'm asking again if one of you will restore the link. Thanks. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 15:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

ELs are supposed to enhance the learning experience for readers. If they follow the ABR, what they will see is a "Christian Apologetics Ministry" with a lot of young-Earth rubbish. In other words, they will see a site that is opposed to the pro-reason bias that Wikipedia has and is proud of. It isn't our job to preach. We link to religious groups sometimes when those groups are the subject of an article, not to give religious alternatives to the topics we write about from a scientific viewpoint. Zerotalk 15:27, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey Zero. You've added another contribution to the discussion, "We link to religious groups sometimes when those groups are the subject of an article". Yes, but that's not the policy under discussion here. The policy discussed here specifically regards sources WP views as unreliable for topics that the unreliable source may nonetheless contain information about the subject of the article. Again from WP:EL the External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." If the contribution you just offered was the policy under discussion, it would read "Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet [are the subject of the article]." The policy here doesn't read that way though and you may not agree with the existing WP policy but this isn't the place to change it. And because the policy is exactly on target and appears supportive of adding this external link, I'll ask if one of you guys might reconsider and restore the link? Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 17:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

By our book, ABR is not made of knowledgeable people.

The Bible is the voice of God, not the voice of scientists. If we want the voice of scientists, we ask the scientists. Most of them do advocate the Big Bangabiogenesis, and evolution as the most visible means of how the world came to be. Whether or not this was God's doing is up to the reader to decide. If the scientists are mistaken, this has to be shown to them on their own grounds, which anti-evolution folks are not really doing, because they are not reading up on the same literature, they are not using the same standards and experiments, and they are not speaking in the same circles nor getting published in the same journals. If it does not walk like a duck, does not talk like a duck, and avoids ducks like the plague, there is little reason to assume its a duck. Or scientist, in this case. I'm not saying the anti-evolution folks are wrong, I'm just saying that they are not mainstream scientists. This is why they're not consulted for the voice of scientists. Now, they can be consulted for what they think if their views are notable.
— User:Ian.thomson

Quoted by Tgeorgescu. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, ABR's business is disinformation. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Tgeorgescu. Your "book" i.e., WP's Fringe theories content guideline, has no reference to what we're discussing here, that is, can a particular unreliable source qualify as an external link in an article. It also has no definition of, and no mention of "knowledgeable" people, nor of archaeology for that matter. Your link has only one reference on the page to our topic, "External links", and that is to the WP:EL that we've been discussing and I have been quoting from. Perhaps some editors would like to apply policies not related to the External Links section to external links sections. But that's a matter to be taken up elsewhere. Here, we are discussing whether ABR, an admittedly WP-judged fringe-theory and unreliable source, fits the WP policy to be an External Link in this "Biblical archaeology" article. So for that, the first relevant question to ask is, can ABR by the WP:EL policy qualify as an External Link "to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." The External Link that has been removed is to a website populated by "knowledgeable sources" on biblical archaeology, that is, it's run by a PhD in archaeology from Andrews U with staffers who have a masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard, a masters from Baltimore Hebrew U. with a thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine, M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto, etc. I'm thankful that you and Zero are helping to work through this, but I'm wondering if it might be more constructive if we keep extraneous topics and policies out of the discussion and try to come to a consensus based on Wikipedia's External Links Policies. I don't quite know the etiquette in this situation, as to whether it's rude to ask a question in more than three iterations, so in case it is, I'll change it up. Realizing that at any given time there are very few people reading this Talk page and this section of the talk page, nonetheless I'll ask. Is there a Wikipedian here who will undo the deletion of this External Link? Or, for that matter, re-enter something along the lines of:

Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 22:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

BobEnyart, I have to agree with the other editors who object. The article is about the science of archaeology related to "the periods and descriptions in the Bible". I don't agree that A Christian Apologetics Ministry Dedicated to Demonstrating the Historical Reliability of the Bible through Archaeological and Biblical Research does "contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" that should be brought to our readers' attention. If their tag had been "Dedicated to Examining"...or researching or exploring, etc...there would be a possibility that their site was about the science, but "demonstrating" clearly indicates a pre-selected outcome which their information will be selected to support. The link that you're proposing falls into Links to be considered. It looks like multiple editors have considered it and think it is inappropriate to add, as do I. Schazjmd (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Schazjmd. You list two objections. The primary objection, as I think we can see here, is your objection that ABR is an unreliable source. But this is a given throughout my attempt to apply policy to restore this removed link. You say if they were a group that had the mission you describe, of "examining" rather than "demonstrating", that might make them acceptable here, but by imagining that change, we would be pushing them (in our imagination) toward being a "reliable" source. That's why I'm saying that your main objection regards what has been admitted throughout, whereas the policy permits using unreliable sources as external links. Further, the fact that their mission makes them a de facto unreliable source for WP does not mean that they don't present throughout their (disapproved of) work extensive information "about the science of archaeology related to 'the periods and descriptions in the Bible'." Their staffers have authored many research works in mainstream publications and conferences, and of course they use that work also on their own site. So it seems manifestly false that ABR does not qualify as a WP unreliable source that contains extensive information about the science of archaeology "related to 'the periods and descriptions in the Bible'". That leaves us with your second objection. For then as you indicate, the few editors here who have weighed in don't support restoring the link. However, I don't take those few editors as sufficiently representive to give up on the recommendation that we add this single external link to a related unreliable source in this (if printed out) 15-page article. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 00:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

BobEnyart, I wasn't clear, I'm sorry about that. My objection is that this is an article about science; the external link is to a website that is not. They might use science in pursuit of their clearly stated aim to demonstrate that the Bible is historically reliable, but this article is not about the reliability of the Bible. I don't think it's a useful external link for our readers. Schazjmd (talk) 00:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

An external link is not appropriate. But Associates for Biblical Research which was created as a redirect to Wood probably should be an article, even though I can see it would be a problem. Even a section on Creationist archaeology might be a good idea. I'm always in favor of publicly debunking fringe. Doug Weller talk 12:23, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Wanting to bring into this discussion the use of Wikipedia as an outlet to publicly debunk fringe is understandable, but I urge us to keep passions out of what should be an as-objective-as-possible discussion to evaluate whether WP policy WP:EL merits here an unreliable source external link. Others may consider an ABR article. But I do think you get closer to our policy disagreement Doug when you suggest a possibly "good idea" of a section here on Creationist archaeology. I realize it's harder to use an external link as a debunking outlet, but that doesn't trump the WP EL policy. There is the option of working to modify WP policy, but as it stands, restoring the link is the action that overtly complies with WP:EL. Might one of you do that while Doug considers that new section? 2601:280:5B7F:8708:B14F:300F:A11C:8626 (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no consensus to include the external link. WP:EL states an EL of this type is to be considered. It doesn't say should be included. There is no failure to comply with WP:EL by not adding that link to this article. WP:EL (a guideline, not a policy) states No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link. Your justification has not convinced any other editor to agree with you (yet). You may want to invite editors from related Wikipedia projects to weigh in, in order to get wider input. Schazjmd (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Schazjmd, you're correct of course that there's no consensus but on the viewpoint separating us it seems we are making progress and in an important way getting closer together. Taking your latest comment as an indicator of where we're at, we' have moved from an ABR External Link being in violation of WP guidelines to such a link being within guidelines but not within consensus. These examples and summary of the objections shows how much progress that is:

- Just in your previous post from 15 hours earlier you said "your objection is that this is an article about science". The WP:EL doesn't exclude science articles, and if you think it should, you could propose that change there, but enforcing that personal bias regarding the guideline here doesn't seem appropriate.
- Doug had just said such a link "is not appropriate" but by the WP guideline as Schazjmd has admitted it clearly is; the question now is can there be consensus. Doug, you could help build that consensus by reconsidering.
- Tgeorgescu, even though the link was being argued for as an unreliable source, pulled Bible quotes from ABR apparently to prove it was an unreliable source, illustrating as throughout the above that the objections are mostly based on emotion about ABR rather than on the WP guidelines.
- Tgeorgescu writes of ABR's material, "ain't gonna pass through peer-review in any academic journal worth its salt" and "This is even better", better that is, for showing ABR to be an unreliable source, but not better, or even relevant, to applying the guideline.
- Tgeorgescu writes, "for the true believer, the above quotes are sublime truths; for the rest of us they are ridiculous rants" overtly showing that some objection to this particular external link is based on emotion, such that an appeal to the guidelines might have a very hard time getting a fair hearing.
- Zero then offered a clearly false assessment, for regardless of the ABR site representing WP "fringe" and being unreliable, he claimed the ABR staffers are not "knowledgeable" about the field. (That's like claiming the 18% of US MDs who believe that "God created humans exactly as they appear now", or the hundreds of thousands of other MDs who believe God guided our origin, are not knowledgeable about their fields.)
- Tgeorgescu volunteered something that then Zero disagreed with, "Let me tell you something: 'biblical archaeologist' is a label meant to express mockery". I hope this summary list can help you guys see that there's way more emotion and bias coming out from the "anti-link" side than the pro-link (my) side, and that I've been the one arguing for applying WP guidelines against unreasonably biased objections.
- Zero then objected to the link because it "would look more like an advertisement" but that assessment doesn't seem WP guideline-based in the least but is understandable as bias-based.
- Zero's next comment feared a link to a "Christian Apologetics Ministry" with "young-Earth rubbish" would look like WP was "preach[ing]". But a single on-topic external link to an unreliable source (described as "biblical literalist") can't possibly amount to preaching, but that objection does illustrate that through our entire disagreement it's the anti-link side that's demonstrating motivation beyond a desire to apply WP guidelines.
- Tgeorgescu then refers to "our book" (i.e., WP's fringe parlance) and by that he gives the impression (to me anyway) that he'd like to intimidate into not participating in WP those with a different "book", presumably like Muslims, Jews, Christians, by his inserting an extended quote about the voice of God, not science, and talking like a duck and plagues and all, and he then speaks for all of WP pronouncing ABR as an unreliable source, which doesn't disqualify it under the guidline discussed here but qualifies it as an external link here by WP:EL which Doug first linked to.
- Doug suggested a section in the article on "Creationist archaeology" because he's always in favor of "publicly debunking fringe", but surely if that is plausible, than the anti-link folks should be able to set aside emotion and reconsider a single on-topic external link from a relevant WP-judged unreliable source.

- Finally Schazjmd you've come a long way when you state that there is no consensus over the EL but that WP:EL states that a link "of this type" is to be considered, and you add, of course, that WP:EL doesn't say that it MUST be included. Yes, agreed. But what our discussion has demonstrated is that the anti-link side brings a lot of emotion and bias against even a fair consideration of the link as WP-appropriate and article-relevant. So I think it would be good if an anti-link editor could overcome the evident bias throughout the above and reconsider restoring the link, something like this:

Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 15:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

An external link to that site is neither WP-appropriate nor article-relevant. Schazjmd (talk) 15:41, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

And I still don't support it. ¬¬¬¬

Schazjmd, first, thanks for answering my Help Desk question for my QM indeterminism edit. As for this unreliable source link, you guys, Doug Weller, Zero, Tgeorgescu, and you Schazjmd, are so conditioned to protect WP from fringe that it appears you've reflexively made yourselves unable to objectively consider an external link WP:EL unreliable source and merely have a knee-jerk reaction against what would be a perfectly appropriate application of Wikipedia guidelines. Many readers undoubtedly and for a wide-range of reasons would not want this article to unreasonably hide from them the existence of such an organization as you all are doing. I have much to learn about WP etiquette, so I'm not sure if it's bad behavior for me to go and reverse that edit and restore the link. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 13:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

BobEnyart, in reverse order: yes, it would be bad behavior for you to add the external link against consensus. Your accusation that those of us who disagree with you have not objectively considered the question is inappropriate. You're welcome for the Help Desk question. Schazjmd (talk) 15:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Okay then I'm done. The list of emotional arguments above and the move from such a link being outside of WP policy to it just lacking consensus I think demonstrate the subjectivity. And I do think WP readers of this article are the losers to this result. Thanks though everyone for your time. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 23:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)