A Creationist Interviews Lawrence Krauss
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* Real Science Radio has a Far Ranging Conversation with Krauss: Co-hosts Bob Enyart and Fred Williams present Bob's interview of theoretical physicist (emphasis on the theoretical), atheist Lawrence Krauss. Fred says, "It's David vs. Goliath, but without the slingshot." As the discussion ranges from astronomy and anatomy to cosmology and physics, most folks would presume that Dr. Krauss would take apart Enyart's arguments, especially when the Bible believer got the wrong value for the electron-to-proton mass ratio. But the conversation reveals fascinating dynamics from the creation/evolution debate. (The planned 25-minute interview ran 40 minutes, so there's also a Krauss Part II and once in each half we say, "Stop the tape, stop the tape," to comment.)
* "All Evidence Overwhelmingly Supports the Big Bang": Contradicting Dr. Krauss' over-the-top sales pitch, see RSR's List of Things that Bust the Big Bang, cataloging major observations made by NASA and leading institutions which, as the discoverers typically admit, contradict what was predicted based on the most fundamental expectations of the Big Bang.
* Atheists Admit Fully Half of the Argument: When admitting that biological life appears designed, and that the universe appears finely tuned, the atheist admits fully half of the intelligent design argument. Krauss friend Richard Dawkins often says and has written that, "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed..." (Dawkins, Watchmaker, p. 1). And the leading cosmologists acknowledge the appearance of the fine tuning of many of the parameters of the universe. Stephen Hawking titled his 2010 book, The Grand Design, and since the 1980s has been admitting, "The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life" (Hawking, Brief History of Time, p. 129). The first half of the argument for the existence of a Designer is the identification of that which appears to be designed. Bob tried to get Krauss to acknowledge this much.
* Krauss Never Heard of Common Terms: Atheists say the darndest things. Apparently, Bob Enyart's command of the English language and extensive vocabulary took Lawrence Krauss off guard to where he had to repeatedly ask for definitions of complex terms. "What is an atheist?" "What is an evolutionist?" Etc. Real Science Radio documents the quirk of evolutionists who pretend during debates with creationists that they've never heard certain common terms. Below, Krauss adds to our list...
- AronRa in the last round of our RSR debate, asked, What's an evolutionist? and What's Neo-Darwinism?
- Eugenie Scott couldn't figure out what I could possibly be referring to when Bob asked her to provide "evidence" for evolution. When he quoted a leading evolutionist on 'problems' for evolution, she even asked, "What's a problem?"
- Richard Dawkins describes as "the kind of question only a creationist would ask", this one, which he still can't answer, “Give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome.”
- Larry Krauss however set a record for not recognizing the most common terms in the least amount of time. RSR will keep Webster's Desktop Reference handy for any future interviews with Lawrence or other atheists. Krauss asked, often incredulously, as though he had never heard of such things:
- "What's a person?"
- "What's an atheist?"
- "What's an evolutionist?"
- "What's Darwinism?"
- He never heard of the "multiverse" proposed as an answer for the fine-tuning problem. Like his friend Eugenie being unfamiliar with the concept of a "problem", Larry had never heard of the multiverse as an answer to a problem, until moments later when he remembered it.
- Krauss acts as though he's never heard of the idea of directed panspermia, nor the idea of the complexity of life being explained in part by claiming that it originated in outer space. Moments later Krauss says panspermia is an "interesting" idea, and then later, a "fascinating" idea. Panspermia, though of the non-directed type, is an idea that he himself presented on CNN just weeks earlier. As physicist Rob Sheldon, at the Marshall Space Flight Center, writes, "a not-insignificant thread of scientists who have held this view, including Arrhenius, Crick, Hoyle, Wickramasinghe and now supported by the observations of Hoover", Richard Hoover being an astrobiologist also with NASA’s MSFC who imagines that life developed somewhere in outer space. Beyond well known scientists like Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of DNA, even Krauss' own friend Richard Dawkins suggested directed panspermia, that is, that aliens intentionally seeded life on earth. Atheists take note however: Aliens didn't create man, man created aliens. Note also, by the way, that this entire argument is one of punting. Sheldon wrote that, "if it occurred somewhere else in the galaxy, it would have had more time..." More time? The same evidence precluding life from forming here applies elsewhere, and while BB cosmology alleges that some other planet might have existed three or four times longer than Earth, the mere statistical hurdles presented by a "simple" biological organism assembling through chance chemical interactions is an orders-of-magnitude problem, with trillions and trillions of universes enduring trillions of times longer that ours still vastly insufficient for the task. Further, life is information based, and no merely material entity can create information. (Computers manipulate physical representations of information and are tools of sentient beings.) Thus in mere moments Krauss moves from ignorant to enthusiastic about an endeavor which is nothing more than the desperation of a failed worldview.
The Conclusion of the Matter: Evolutionists use this debate quirk (rsr.org/atheists-say-the-darndest-things), of pretending to be unfamiliar with common terms in order to obfuscate, to try to keep the debate away from substantive challenges, and as a delay tactic to minimize the number of challenges from creationists that they have to address.
* Krauss Says All Scientists are Darwinists: When you hear consensus, consensus, you may have reason to doubt the consensus. First, Krauss is ignoring the .6 million U.S. Ph.D.s, professors, etc., who doubt the fundamental claim of materialistic origins. Secondly, while there is nothing wrong with quoting an expert on a topic, Krauss uses the bait and switch tactic of identifying experts in one field and then without acknowledging the switch, proceeds as though they were experts in a different topic. By this Krauss commits the logical fallacy of an invalid argument from authority. Being a pilot doesn't mean that you know how to make an airplane, let alone gravity. The same is true, as explained below in the applied sciences item, regarding operational scientists vs. origins theorists.
* Journal Admits Doubt of Primary Evidence: Many evolutionists including Dawkins (as in his extrapolation from canine diversity) oversell the claim to the public that small changes within species prove that over long periods, the species themselves arose naturally. However, out of the hearing of the general public, evolutionary biologists themselves are more honest. As in the Journal of Evolutionary Biology itself, "A persistent debate in evolutionary biology is one over the continuity of microevolution and macroevolution – whether macroevolutionary trends are governed by the principles of microevolution." In house, this is a debate. Outside, Darwin marketing reps like Dawkins, Coyne, and Krauss pretend this is settled science. Whereas one of the world's preeminent self-described atheists, Thomas Nagel, concluded his 2012 book, "Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False", predicting that today's evolution “consensus... will come to seem laughable in a generation or two."
* Krauss Says All Scientists are Atheists: Another example of his constant unscientific hype was when Dr. Krauss said on today's program that, "All scientists are atheists." A moment later he admitted that many of them believe in God. (See also realscienceradio.com/krauss2#big-bang-doubters.)
For today's show RSR recommends
the best astronomy science DVD ever made!
What You Aren't Being Told About Astronomy:
Our Created Solar System!
* Applied Science and Krauss' False Appeal to Authority: Krauss tells the audience that they should believe in the Big Bang because the telephone, by which Bob Enyart is interviewing him, works. However, since 1876, when Alexander Graham Bell first transmitted intelligible speech by electricity over a wire, atheistic origins theories have changed wildly, yet telephones continued to operate. "Applied science, however, survives enormous changes in secular theories about the beginning of the universe and of life. Thus, such scientific accomplishment does not depend upon those changing theories of origins" (Enyart, 2013, CRSQ 49(4), p. 297). Neither did Darwinism help Bell invent the telephone. (Read the impressive list of inventions and modern technologies at rsr.org/what-inventions-needed-darwin and ask yourself: Do which of our great inventions and technologies required Darwinism, or any atheistic origins theory, for their discovery? The obvious answer is: None of them.) So, among the logical fallacies common to atheist arguments is Krauss' false appeal to authority, that because applied science, which has broad agreement on all sides, works, therefore atheist beliefs on origins should be accepted.
* No one Krauss knows has ever said life is too complicated to have evolved here: One of the authors of the theory of chemical evolution (that elements heavier than helium form in stars and supernovas), Sir Fred Hoyle, famously held that:
"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 [zeros] naughts after it... It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither on this planet nor any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence." -Hoyle
"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make the random concept absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics, on which life depends, are in every respect deliberate... It is, therefore, almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence - even to the extreme idealized limit of God." -Hoyle
Yet Krauss says at 25 minutes into today's program that, "There's no one I know who says that life is too complicated to have evolved here." Perhaps in trying to win this one point in the disagreement, he was being coy in saying, "no one I know." However, even his friend Richard Dawkins has suggested recently:
"Well, [the origin of life on earth] could have come about in this way: The evidence may show, as we look at the complexity, as we look at the genetic mechanisms, that might be evidence that a long time ago, far far away in another galaxy, that there was a civilization that evolved by Darwinian means. And that civilization designed life and seeded it on our earth." -Richard Dawkins to Ben Stein in Expelled (not taken out of context)
After quoting this to Krauss, I added that "If biological life is so complex that it couldn't evolve here on such a hospitable planet, then, why would it evolve somewhere else? You've got the same problems there as here. Don't you agree that they're just punting."
"Well, first of all," Krauss said, "there's no one I know who says that life is too complicated to have evolved here." In debating creationists, Lawrence seems to have selective memory.
* Krauss Claims that Scientists Don't "Believe" Anything: Krauss contradicts his claim that he doesn't "believe" anything in that he believes:
- that life arose naturally from inanimate matter
- the philosophical cosmological principle
- the philosophical anthropic principle
- in a dozen things he claimed just during our brief RSR interview, including in the first one minute.
For other examples of what Krauss and atheists "believe" and take on a blind faith, see RSR's List of Things Atheists Take By Faith. Likewise, while claiming that science doesn't have beliefs, but rather, it only disproves claims, Krauss doesn't realize that claiming that a theory has been falsified is itself a positive statement of belief. (Krauss' fellow atheist AronRa also makes this kind of error. Regarding the philosophical claim that the universe has no center, AronRa could not get himself to realize that such a claim is a positive assertion.) Atheist self contradiction includes their eager belief in falsehood (readily admitting to disproving theories) and their opposition to truth (even denying the existence of truth, which was inevitable seeing that Jesus Christ said, "I am the truth). Thus atheists are increasingly uncomfortable even with information per se, with mind, with the validity of the laws of logic, and so with truth itself. So atheists find a confused kind of comfort in claiming that they don't believe things, they just falsify ideas. Come to think of it though, they're even uncomfortable with the very existence of "ideas", since ideas themselves are not made of matter. (See realscienceradio.com/math#Einstein.)
* Krauss "Surprised" by Friend Eugenie's Junk DNA Claim: Eugenie Scott made the same Junk DNA argument to Bob Enyart that thousands of evolutionists along with the leading Darwinists have made for decades, yet Lawrence Krauss acted surprised to hear it. And Krauss agrees that she was wrong to tell Bob in 1998 that biologists knew for sure that pseudogenes (aka Junk DNA) had no function and so, were evidence against intelligent design. Virtually all leading evolutionists validate the ID concept, except that they use its argument in reverse, and poorly, claiming that what they assess as poor design is evidence against a Creator. (Next week RSR will air four minutes of the Enyart/Eugenie disagreement over junk DNA as the guys discuss the landmark Nature study reporting on 440 genetic researchers who so far have identified function in 80% of the human genome!)
* Two Examples Showing that Krauss' Bias Makes Him a Poor Thinker: In his 2012 book, A Universe from Nothing, motivated by his atheistic bias, Krauss attempts to refute that scientists often use their minds rather than scientific equipment, to make astounding discoveries of the physical universe. He is trying to support the absurd statement that he said to Bob Enyart, that scientists don't "believe anything;" that instead, they merely acknowledge empirical observations. Of course that claim is a virtual hallucination. But it would be interesting to see him argue his case. So in chapter one of Nothing, trying to justify his denial, he presents a story about Albert Einstein which EXACTLY contradicts Krauss' claim and contradicts even the purpose for him referencing the anecdote. In Krauss' own telling of the account, Einstein used telescopes, yes, to make an astronomical observation, but NOT to form his theory, for his theory was formulated in his mind and had already been written on paper, even as Krauss presents it. As Discover magazine's Richard Panek explains:
In the late 17th century, Isaac Newton helped inaugurate a scientific revolution by taking Galileo's observations of the heavens' motions and expressing them mathematically. Then in the early 20th century, Albert Einstein helped inaugurate a second scientific revolution by reversing that process, taking his own calculations and looking for their physical expression in the heavens.
A second example is about nothing. Literally. Apparently no one but Krauss (and perhaps Stephen Hawking, from whom Krauss borrows the title of his book) knows that the word nothing really means something that has physical properties. So Krauss begins his book with a very brief criticism against anyone who would dare use the word "nothing," to mean... well, nothing. Of course what he's trying to do is to justify the deceitful, anti-science, false-marketing of the title of his book. His claim that the word nothing has been improperly defined (by linguists and philosophers) flows from his bias to justify increased book sales by use of a title that he now admits is misleading. So as a second example of his hype-based bias clouding his ability to think clearly, his argument regarding the word "nothing" is itself completely devoid of substance. That is, he provides absolutely no justification for his bizarre claim.
Today’s Resources: Get the Spike Psarris DVD What You Aren't Being Told About Astronomy and Vol. II, Our Created Stars and Galaxies! Have you browsed through our Science Department in the KGOV Store? Check out especially Walt Brown’s In the Beginning and Bob’s interviews with this great scientist in Walt Brown Week! You’ll also love Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez’ Privileged Planet (clip), and Illustra Media’s Unlocking the Mystery of Life (clip)! You can consider our BEL Science Pack; Bob Enyart’s Age of the Earth Debate; Bob's debate about Junk DNA with famous evolutionist Dr. Eugenie Scott; and the superb kids' radio programming, Jonathan Park: The Adventure Begins! And Bob strongly recommends that you subscribe to CMI’s tremendous Creation magazine!
Atheist Origins -- 2013 Update: Bob enjoyed chatting recently with Chauncey, a member of a Denver atheist group. Bob asked Chauncey to consider two things: 1) If you don't have a theory of origins that accounts for human consciousness, then you don't even have a hypothesis. And 2) There is a demonstrable pattern to atheist claims about origins in that:
- the origin of species for Darwin begins with species already in existence
- the origin of stars begins with existing protostars and the explosion of existing stars
- the origin of genes that code for new proteins begins with modifying existing genes
- the origin of species for the neo-Darwinian synthesis begins with wildly sophisticated existing life
- the origin of life on earth increasingly is seen as seeded from pre-existing life in outer space
- the origin of the universe increasingly is explained by claiming that our fine-tuned universe is merely a byproduct of the pre-existing multiverse which is forever popping trillions of universes into existence.
This pattern demonstrates that many in the public, following the gullible media, have undue confidence in the origins claims of evolution marketing reps like Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss.