Dec. 14, 2013 Noon - 6 p.m.
The Airport Radisson - Indianapolis, IN
At the door $25 for adults, $70 for families
Beginning with a discussion about Ra's 1st Foundational Falsehood video, Bob has a conversation with one of the web's leading anti-creationists, AronRa. In one highlight, AronRa refused to agree that Isaac Newton is in the special creation camp. Bob was shocked by this, and tried to explain that because Newton believed that God created fully human Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and because Newton wrote extensively to show that the biblical chronology of an approximately 6,000-year-old earth is accurate, that he cannot be included in the camp of methodological naturalism as AronRa claimed. It is surprising but somewhat forgivable that atheist AronRa did not know that Isaac Newton wrote more about Scriptural chronology, history, and theology than he did about physics and math, but it is not forgivable, apart from a correction by AronRa, that he then proceeded to defend in writing his refusal to admit that this historical giant, one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, Isaac Newton, was in the special creation camp. Newton even wrote that because of the extreme weather during the global flood, that Noah would not be able to see the Moon for much of the time on the ark. Of course, Newton did not need to know about Darwin nor genetics to reject biblical creation and agree with the ancient Greek philosophical claim of an eternal universe. Newton was a creationist. And if AronRa acknowledges that and corrects his claim, we'll update this page! Update: In the 2012 Enyart/Ra written debate Aron eventually begrudgingly admitted, in a backhanded insulting way, that Newton was a creationist.
* Radio Debate: AronRa vs. Creationist Bob Enyart:
- AronRa and Enyart: Pt. 1 (this show)
- AronRa and Enyart: Pt. 2
- AronRa and Enyart: Pt. 3 (soft tissue; and center of universe?)
- AronRa and Enyart Begin Round Two: Pt. 4
- Fred Williams of RSR Weighs in on AronRa
- AronRa and Enyart: Pt. 5 (frozen mammoths)
- AronRa and Enyart: Pt. 6
- AronRa and Enyart: Pt. 7
Please Note League of Reason Dysfunction: Since 3-11-13, links to leagueofreason.co.uk ceased functioning but they do function with the prefix "the" added. Initially we've updated the relevant links on this page and perhaps, if this is a long-term LoR problem, we may update the other LoR links throughout our site. We won't let AronRa get away that easily :). So where necessary, just prepend "the" to any LoR links, as in theleagueofreason.co.uk.
Round One: As an atheist, Aron appeals to authority. Also, Ra's refusal to admit that Isaac Newton was a creationist.
Round Two: AronRa did not know about the many peer-reviewed confirmations of dinosaur soft tissue. Also...
Newsweek Reporters Asked About Their 1987 Statistic: As often claimed by evolutionists, Ra says that 99.86% of scientists affirm Darwinism, a statistic that is unintentionally fabricated by a confused misuse of a 1987 Newsweek article that reports no poll or survey but a "count" of 700 creationist scientists. (At the time the Creation Research Society had that same number, 700, as the size of its voting membership which was made up of scientists with advanced degrees.) By such an overly invalid statistical method, atheists themselves would comprise only two-hundredths of one percent of 230 million U.S. adults if we calculated using "one count" of atheists, namely, the membership of the Skeptics Society. Of course that's wrong. Newsweek reporters Martz and McDaniel wrote, "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientist) who give credence to creation-science, the general theory that complex life forms did not evolve but appeared "abruptly." To a request for more details, on June 12, 2012 Ann McDaniel replied: "Bob – I wish I had the notes for that story, but I don’t have everything from 25 years ago, and I don’t remember. So sorry that I cannot help you." On April 1, 2013 Larry Martz wrote, "Mr. Enyart, ... I was the New York writer on this story, working from reports from Ann McDaniel and others who weren't named in the byline, along with whatever telephone reporting I did myself. I don't remember which of them came up with that figure, or what its provenance was. It might well have been Ginny Carroll, who was Newsweek's principal reporter on Christian religious affairs; but sad to say, Ginny is dead. Your conjecture seems entirely reasonable, but none of us can confirm it... I think you are probably safe to use your conjecture for the source, along with 'probably.' best, larry martz". Bob also spoke with Glen Wolfram, the CRS membership director who has served in that position since the 1980s. Wolfram agreed with Enyart's conclusion that Newsweek was likely referring to the publicly known number of scientist members of CRS. He provided published membership records from throughout the 1980s. Over the five years from mid-1982 to mid-1987, the average CRS membership was about 2,000 with 36 percent being voting members, that is, having earned a postgraduate science degree. So there were an average of 710 "scientists with respectable academic credentials" as members of CRS in the years leading up to that Newsweek article, which number was undoubtedly the source for that 1987 report. (The late Roger Ebert may have been remembering the fabricated claim that nearly 100% of scientists reject design when he put the percent at "99.975".) As for the 99.86, that percentage was, possibly unintentionally, arrived at by some who incorrectly calculated a percentage based on the "count". So Real Science Radio hereby ask evolutionists to help us creationists by correcting anyone who still promotes that incorrect 99.86%. Thanks!
Round Three: Catalog of the peer-reviewed confirmation of dinosaur soft tissue; rapid stratification; carbon 14 everywhere; wildly unexpected genomic discoveries.
Round Four: Millions of nautiloid fossils standing on their heads; uniform strata boundaries; gently curved strata; and alleged millions of years of missing strata; all versus AronRa's denial of evidence of rapid strata deposition at the Grand Canyon; Global flooding on Earth vs. Mars; And Bob's brief replies to AronRa's claims about Babel and The Exodus including on the major Darwinian predictions about the origin of language being disproved by evolutionists.
Round Five: AronRa claims that the traditional tree of life, based on anatomy and the fossil record, is doubly confirmed when drawn by genetic sequences. Bob Enyart challenges this and references the many genomes that leading evolutionists admit do not fit into the predicted Darwinian pattern (like PNAS reporting that horses are closer to bats than to cows). Presenting the discoveries published in peer-reviewed evolutionary journals, as in RSF's List of Genomes that Just Don't Fit, and as in the cover story in Britain's leading science magazine, New Scientists' own Darwin was wrong about the tree of life, evolutionary geneticists at respected institutions are nonetheless blatantly admitting that DNA, RNA, and proteins demonstrate contradictory evolutionary pathways and that therefore, genetic science is, far from "doubly confirming" it, actually undermining the alleged Darwinian tree of life. A famed evolutionist repeated AronRa's confusion, claiming that the nonconformist genomes are relegated to the realm of microorganisms, which misunderstanding of theirs is falsified in the RSR rebuttal to Jerry Coyne's criticism of Bob Enyart. (In this round Aron included an image and caption that he thought came from the NS article in question, but actually came from two different online sources, and that all added to the confusion of the evolutionists as to what the NS article was saying.)
Round Six Post Ends Debate: AronRa unexpectedly quit the debate shortly after he and PZ Myers bragged about how well this debate was going for the atheists when Aron wrote that Bob's "next submission ought to be interesting whatever it is…" So Bob had the opportunity to conclude the debate regarding:
- Aron presented zero evidence for his claim against creationism in 1st Foundational video
- Copernicus, Bacon, Kelvin, and Galileo reply to AronRa's misrepresentation of them
- Evolutionists during debates pretend they've not heard of common words and concepts
- Aron's insistence that Bob claims the dinosaur soft tissue is "edible"
- Darwinists identify entities like bodily organs and supragroups as ancestors even though, because they do not reproduce, they are not even Darwinian evolutionary units
- The claim of the standard model that the universe has "no center" is not based on science but philosophy
- Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam help close the debate
- Evolutionists reject the "hard science" of multiple, independent, radioactive dating techniques that produced a "too old" age for Skull 1470 so they threw that date out based on their certainty of when pigs evolved (really)
- Tropical forests and millions of mammoths catastrophically buried in the Arctic as across thousands of miles these giant creatures one-by-one, according to Aron, fell into holes
- Aron's source, physicist Lawrence Krauss, tells RSR that he agrees that T. rex blood vessels have been discovered
- Aron's source, Dr. Philip Gingerich, agrees with RSR that he wrongly reconstructed alleged whale ancestor Rodhocetus
- Bob answers AronRa's Phylogeny Challenge.
* Typo Alert: Two computer-editing typos appear in a final round post, both saying "On MSds", which should say:
Illusions of Identified Ancestry for Turtles, Flowers, etc.: [Aron's 8th of 9]
Discoverer of Whale "Ancestor" Rodhocetus Retracts Claims: [ of 9]:
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* AronRa's First Foundational Falsehood Video Completely Unsubstantiated: If this accusation is true, that Aron provides zero evidence to support the central claim of his first video, this undermines the credibility of AronRa's entire Foundational Falsehoods series. So feel free to watch the video and see his quotes, omission of evidence, and the evidence that falsified his first and foremost claim, all below!
* AronRa Fails to Cite Even a Single Example: Aron's 1st Foundational Falsehood video against creationists, titled "evolution = atheism", says that we creationists claim that evolution is synonymous with atheism, which we do not. We deal with theistic evolutionists all the time. AronRa's video provides not a single quote from any leading creationist to substantiate his claim. When Bob Enyart pointed this out in their radio debate at KGOV.com/AronRa the popular atheist said that his video shows Answers in Genesis president Ken Ham himself. But Enyart pointed out that it was video of Ken Ham, but with AronRa's own voice superimposed. Enyart is unfamiliar with any creation ministry that makes this claim and challenged Ra to provide one example from any leading creation ministry. During our broadcast, it appeared that Aron became confused even about what his first foundational falsehood claim was. So to clarify, from his video, Aron alleges without providing evidence that creationism…
3:53 – 4:03 "is based on at least a dozen foundational falsehoods. First and foremost among them is the idea that accepting evolution requires the rejection of theism, if not all other religious or spiritual beliefs as well."
4:03 – 4:14 "For decades, those behind the creationist movement have tried very hard to portray that one cannot accept evolution and still believe in God. They know better."
6:43 - 6:52 " Poll after poll continues to reveal that, around the world, most “evolutionists” are Christian, and most Christians are evolutionists. So evolution is not synonymous with atheism"
4:20 – 4:23 "That's been their central claim since the movement began." [hear all four]
Central claim? RSR cannot present here the quotes or evidence that Aron provides, because his video presents nothing to back up his claim. Judging by his YouTube channel's millions views, his atheist viewers must be satisfied with accusations without evidence because apparently not a single evolutionist has made him realize that he should provide such evidence. Bias has that effect. So Aron should either show that this belief of his is defensibly accurate or he should correct it. As Aaron says in his 4th Foundational Falsehoods video:
8:17 – 8:30 "But if you believe in truth at all, then you should make sure that the things that you say actually are true. That they are defensibly accurate, and academically correct. And if they are not correct, you should correct them. You wouldn't claim to know anything that you couldn't prove that you knew." hear it
* AronRa Confused about His Own First Foundational Falsehood: When creationists argue that evolution is false, and that atheism is false, AronRa confuses himself into thinking that we are asserting that evolution is synonymous with atheism. That is his non sequitur. Aron explicitly does this on the radio when debating Bob Enyart accusing the creationist of conflating evolution with atheism on the sole grounds that Enyart argued that both are false. (See the related story, KGOV.com/pot.) AronRa is as confused as if he claimed that anyone opposed to the UFO craze and opposed to Keynesian economics is therefore claiming that Lord Keynes was an alien. So RSR challenges AronRa, first to admit that his first foundational video provides not a single quote to substantiate his point. And then to go and try to find one from any leading creation organization. And if he cannot, then he needs to take his own advice.
* Positive Evidence Contradicting AronRa's First Foundational Falsehood: Creationists have always acknowledged and responded to theistic evolutionists. (Aron, you seem to confuse the presentation of "conclusions", which you do throughout your videos, with the presentation of "evidence. The rest of this paragraph is an example of the presentation of evidence.) Strident evolutionists (like William Provine and as in the journals Nature and Science), as well as creationists, have long argued that the opposing positions are untenable. Here, however, are examples of the leading creationist organizations writing about those who advocate both the existence of God and of evolution by way of theistic evolution:
- CMI's creation.com has many articles dealing with T.E. including 10 dangers of theistic evolution
- AiG's answersingenesis.org has many articles dealing with T.E. including The Basic Assumptions of T.E.
- ICR's icr.org has many articles dealing with T.E. including Could evolution and creation be telling the same story
- CRS's creationresearch.org has many articles dealing with T.E. including An examination of theistic evolution
- CSC's creationscience.com has many references to T.E. including Theistic evolution vs. the Biblical account
* Evolutionists Commit This Kind of Error Themselves: When Darwinists claim, as they all do, that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution, they are saying that a creationist cannot be a scientist (at least not in the biological sciences, and Big Bang and chemical evolution proponents show similar bias in their fields). Thus, in this way, Darwinists commonly claim, falsely, that you cannot be a scientist unless you believe in evolution. Not surprising then, wherever they can, evolutionists kill the careers of those who doubt Darwin. (RSR documents atheists being guilty of the very things that they accuse creationists of.) However, some evolutionists acknowledge that creationists can be good scientists.
Bob's Show Notes:
Aron, as you are introducing your first foundation falsehood video, you say that:
- 1/3 Americans say evolution is supported by facts
- 1/3 Evolution is one of many theories not supported by facts
- 1/3 don't know.
Pollsters often ask poorly worded question, but this survey you've claimed is bizarre. Regardless though, of course scientific truth isn't decided by polls or popular opinion. But contrasting your claimed results with the latest relevant Gallop poll, at gallup.com, is interesting:
- Only 6% have no opinion or say they don't know
- 40% say that God made man in our present form, and
- Another 38% say that God guided man's evolution.
That's 78% of Americans who say either that God guided our evolution or that He specially created us.
Aron doesn't give a source for his numbers. And Bob is not familiar with any poll that's ever asked, as Aron represents, whether evolution is, "'one of many theories,' not supported by facts," which of course would be a bizarre question from a heavily biased poll and surely not worthy of repeating.
Aron writes that "99.86% of [scientists] accept evolution," making essentially an appeal to authority argument. This statistic is completely fabricated. Bob communicated with the Newsweek reporter cited as the indirect source of this statistic (from an article she wrote nearly a quarter century ago), tracked down how the stat originated, and authoritatively shows how completely fraudulent it is. What atheists should acknowledge however, is that such a subtle appeal to authority is problematic, regardless of what percent of scientists actually are evolutionists. For example:
U.S. lawyers are experts at the law; Most of our lawyers claim that we have the best system in the world; Therefore we must have the best system in the world. (In reality, "We no longer have a justice system; now it's just a system." -Bob Enyart)
Scientists are experts in operational physics, chemistry, and biology; Most scientists believe in naturalistic origins. Therefore naturalistic origins must be true.
Some of the world's leading experts on genetics have concluded that molecular biology is so complex that it could not have arisen by physical processes so it must have been created by an Intelligent Designer (some even proposing that aliens might have fulfilled this role, as even Richard Dawkins claims is a possibility). Thus scientists expert in the laws of physics are not therefore automatically authorities in the origin of those laws. And operational science, which gives the public much of its confidence in science, confers no automatic authority upon scientists for them to correctly infer the origin of life. So AronRa is subtly conflating notions of the general public to present the illusion of scientific certainty regarding evolution. In reply Aron claimed that "99.86% of [scientists] accept evolution," figure Bob then demonstrated was a completely invalid statistic that resulted from no survey or poll whatsoever and was simply fabricated by atheists. Bob also offered contrasting evidence to Aron's claim of a "complete consensus" among scientists for evolution. Applied science is where the rubber meets the road. And the medical field is where ideas in biology, anatomy, and genetics are confronted with real-world tests. And of course there's a large percentage of U.S. doctors who reject strict Darwinism including 34% of physicians who indicate that they are more comfortable with intelligent design than with evolution. Bob's older audience members know that he's been interviewing scientists who reject Darwin for 20 years. In fact RSR just aired a program on a leading Cornell geneticists (emeritus) who is world renowned for developing the Gene Gun, John Sanford, who wrote Genetic Entropy rejecting Darwinism.
And in refuting the claim that only uneducated people would be creationists, of course many of the greatest fathers of the physical sciences, both before and after Darwin, were special creationists. Aron interrupted Bob who was quickly listing off scientists who would have included, before Darwin, Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Galileo, Pascal, Boyle, Newton, Cuvier, and Dalton, and after Darwin, Faraday, Mendel, Pasteur, Joule, Kelvin, Lister, and Carver, who along with many others, continued to advocate for special creation and reject evolution. Regarding his appeal to authority, Aron wants to dismiss the rebuttal value from our pre-Darwin list of scientists. But various philosophers for thousands of years rejected special creation of the cosmos. Darwin proposed a mechanism, but no philosopher needed a specific mechanism to deny creation. Aristotle claimed that the universe was eternal. And even today there's no demonstrable mechanism for the big bang, yet scientists today reject God as creator of the universe. So the atheist a priori rejection of pre-Darwin creationists is arbitrary and therefore not logically valid.
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